In some areas, diplomacy is sidelined because the big powers are at loggerheads. Others fade away because no one is interested any longer. One of these cases is the situation of human rights and the extreme discrimination of women in Afghanistan – a «cooperating partner» of the Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE). Former minister for women’s affairs Sima Samar – in exile since 2021 – suggests that the Swiss chair «organize some opportunity for a real person from Afghanistan to speak to the public of Europe».
When have you last been in Afghanistan?
I left Afghanistan on 25th June 2021. Unfortunately, I cannot go back.
What would happen if you went back there?
It’s very difficult to predict what the Taliban does. After they took Kabul on the 15th of August 2021, they were already in my home on the 16th. So it is difficult to trust the situation, they took my car and wanted to take my house as well.
After the withdrawal of the US and other military forces, Afghanistan is not really in the news anymore. There are routine UN meetings on the situation in your country, but nobody seems to care. Is this a fair assessment?
Yes, it is correct. Unfortunately, Afghanistan is forgotten, but it is what I would call a bleeding wound.
And who does the bleeding?
The public, the ordinary Afghan people. An aggressive, violent, small minority group in the country is controlling all the population, 40 million people.
If we hear about Afghanistan, we hear about the plight of the Afghan women. You say that the public in general is suffering. Who are the non-female public? How do they suffer?
It’s the minorities. The main focus is on the restriction of freedoms and rights of women, but it’s also directed against the minorities.
Who are these minorities?
They are minority in terms of ethnic groups, in terms of religion, and also in terms of sexual orientation. It is the Shias, estimated at about 25 percent of the population, the Hazaras, the Ahmadis, the Sufis, the Hindus, the Sikhs and others.
In which ways are they repressed or discriminated against?
They are subject to harassment, subject to arrest, killing, tortures, disappearances, forced displacement and even mass killing.
Is there any differentiation in repressing these minorities or is it the same for all of them across the board?
It’s mainly on the Hazaras, Shias. The Taliban force the Hazaras from their villages and take their land. They put a lot of restrictions on their religious practice. They are forcing the students at the universities, private and public universities, to convert to Sunni Islam. It’s an official order by the Taliban.
Let’s turn to women…
… As you know, women are not a minority. Women are completely erased from public life.
Can you give a few examples of what happened?
The discrimination increased over time. They began with women’s access to education. Actually, they began with the erasure of the Ministry of Women’s Affairs…
Your former ministry…
Yes. They renamed it Ministry of Vice and Virtue in September 2021. Then they closed down the schools. They said that they will reopen at the beginning of the new school year, which was 21st or 22nd of March 2022. When the girls went to school, the schools were closed for them. They removed all the female teachers from boys’ schools, even from the primary schools. Then they said that male and female students should not be together in class at the universities. They ordered to put curtains between the men and the women, and when that was not enough, the separated them in time, mornings for girls and afternoons for boys, or the other way around. Then they closed down the universities for women. The latest order is no education beyond 6th grade for females. They first allowed midwifery and some paramedical activities like x-ray or ultrasound technician for females because they needed female staff for female patients, but then they closed it down. Midwifery and nursing is closed down for females. Females cannot work outside of the house. Women cannot work in a government office. To give you an example, if a woman had a job for instance in the Ministry of Finance, she had to go home and a male member of the family could take her job, regardless of the qualification.
No exceptions?
They keep a small number of female police in order to search female bodies. We used to have more 3000 female police officers. They lost their job, Women, if already trained, can work in the medical field, but they face a lot of harassment, in some provinces they ask them to be accompanied by male members of the family, or they check how they dress. The morality police have the right to enter in the hospitals and clinics to check . If the situation continues like this , we will not have female medical staff in the coming future, first they are not allowed to continue their school education beyond six grade, secondly that level of education is not enough to be nurse, midwives or medical doctors. In short. women are practically under house arrest.
Does discrimination stop at the workplace?
No. women cannot walk on the street without a male, and they have to be fully covered. At the beginning, they didn’t really beat up and arrest women whose face was open, but slowly there were more edicts and decrees about women having to be fully covered. A law from August 2024 actually says a woman’s voice should not be heard.
You mean, women are not allowed to talk?
Yes. See, in our religion, you can recite the Quran loudly, it is very common. That is not allowed any more for women. They even say that an Afghan woman cannot show her face to a non-Muslim woman. There are more than 160 laws, decrees, statements and orders restricting women’s rights. The Taliban legalized domestic violence, child marriage and give unlimited power to morality police to decide the punishment of violation of their law, without a fair trial.
Just a simple question: What does a pregnant woman in medical difficulties do? Apparently, she cannot go to a male doctor, and you say that midwifery is now closed for females.
They don’t care. They say that we all born without help, our mothers did not go to hospitals.
What you say recalls very much what we see in extremist religious circles in what used to be called the West. Christian and Muslim circles, particularly in the United States.
There are a lot of similarities there. Religion can be used for political agendas. It’s not only by Muslims. Any religion can be used to control women. That exists in Hinduism, in Judaism, in Christianity and in Islam.
Is there anything like opposition or silent resistance to what happened to Afghan women in the country?
At the beginning when they closed the schools and shut down the job opportunities, there were women who protested on the streets. There were only a few men. The protesters were arrested and tortured badly. The journalist who was covering the events was almost beaten to death. Of course, there are resistance inside and outside the country. The resistance of Afghan women stopped the recognition of the regime.
There are people in our countries who seem to have some kind of understanding for the Taliban approach to society and societal life and the role of women. What do you say to them?
Respect of the culture and religion of the country is always used as an excuse for the failure of the International Community in Afghanistan. It is not only violations of human rights of women in Afghanistan. It is about a crime against humanity. The Taliban actually deny the humanity and human dignity of the female population in Afghanistan.
Many people in our society blame Islam and say that this is a religion that fosters behavior like the Taliban’s.
I think it’s not Islam, because we are not the only Muslim country. More than a billion people are Muslim on this planet. A month ago, 1,5 million people went to Mecca in Saudi Arabia for the annual pilgrimage. Women were walking around Mecca and doing their prayers together open-faced, women from all nationalities. Afghanistan is not holier than Mecca.
Afghan women went open-faced in Mecca?
Yes, there were Afghan women as well. It’s allowed to walk around Mecca and pray in the mosque with open face in Saudi Arabia, but not in Afghanistan.
Could an Afghan woman even go to the Hajj to do Mecca?
Yes, they do go with their male escort, the Mahram. They cannot go alone. Saudi Arabia legally issue visa to women alone, but traditionally it is opposed by religious scholars. But women from all over the world prefer to be with Mahram.
So, women from Morocco for instance could do their Haji alone, but the prefer not to?
There are tour companies who take groups of women with male guides. It is felt that a female cannot guide a woman to do the pilgrimage. I personally believe as a Muslim that religion is there to protect human dignity and to facilitate the growth of humanity and not to put chains on people’s freedom.
There are welcome developments in Afghanistan. According to the UN, opium production has massively decreased. The New York Times recently reported a big increase of Afghan women going into business because operating a small business is their only path to lead an active life. Instead of becoming doctors or teachers they turn to beekeeping and making rugs.
Yes, the opium production is reduced, but there are increases on chemical drugs from Afghanistan. I saw that New York Times article. What kind of empowerment is it if a few hundred women out of 20 million can go into beekeeping and carpet making, perhaps with some support of international development programs? I do know that carpet weaving particularly is unhealthy. The majority of women and girls who do it get asthma and lung diseases. The income is so little compare to the work they do. I so not agree with this definition of empowerment.
Switzerland last year has reopened its humanitarian office in Kabul. On their website, they say they give cash for food to needy households and support medical services, water infrastructure and the protection of women and children at risk. Do you know about these programs?
Yes. I saw the people from SDC when they were beginning to go back to Afghanistan in 2024. Last May, I met the person responsible for South Asia in Bern. I was asking SDC to look into possibilities of cooperation with Shuhada, the Afghan NGO I I founded in 1989. They ran clinics and run some other projects in rural central Afghanistan. Their main focus was the empowerment of women. I know that they are still active.
How should the Swiss Aid agency SDC go about business in Afghanistan?
I would call on SDC to be inclusive on their approach and monitor the projects closely. By inclusiveness I mean to have partners from every ethnic group.
The need for aid is huge, there are millions of refugees returning from Iran and Pakistan, according to the World Food Program 4,9 million mothers and children are malnourished. Does a country that provides humanitarian aid make itself an accomplice to the regime?
No one can change the whole country at once, but every small drop can help. That is my 50 years’ experience. I started schools in the 1990s, when access to formal education was no priority for donors. Access to education actually changed the culture. I see a lot of educated people we reached through our programs in central Afghanistan. There are graduates all over, they are in Zurich, in Geneva, in the Ticino.
It would be better if they were in Afghanistan.
Of course, but there are still enough people in Afghanistan who can make a positive change. But outside of the country they are good and responsible citizens’ in the other countries as well.
Regarding the situation of women and of human rights in Afghanistan, Switzerland says they support advocacy for respect of basic rights in international bodies. Right now, Switzerland is chair of OSCE, and Afghanistan is an Asian partner of OSCE since 2003. Do you observe some activity?
Yes, SDC was a donor for the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission from 2003 to 2017 when I was the Chairperson. It was vital for our work for promotion and protection of human rights in a conflict country.
Supporting promotion and protection of human rights requires strong political will and commitment. It would be helpful if the chair of OSCE would organize some opportunity for a real person from Afghanistan to speak to the public of Europe. The Swiss can do a lot, and they should be in continued principled based negotiation with the regime, in Kabul. Not an obedient partner.
At what point does «action» turn into complicity? What are the criteria a government like the Swiss should apply?
They have to be very strategic and principled. They should not contribute to normalizing the situation in Afghanistan. D not support the regime’s claims of security under the Taliban.
Many in Western Europa like to hear this because they want Afghan refugees to go back, particularly deporting those who do not integrate in our societies.
Afghanistan has less suicide attacks because the perpetrators are now the ones in power, and they are not doing it against themselves. But we should not forget that the Taliban are a group who committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, and even actions of genocide in the country from 1994 until 2021, and they continue to violate human rights with full impunity. Yes, the grave yard is more safe, since no one can raise their voice and protest! But I am sorry, I do not agree with graveyard safety and security.
Some governments try to come to terms with the Taliban in order to accept people who broke the law.
I believe that the European countries are the ones who still believe in some of the standards of human rights. They do know that if they deport these Afghans to Afghanistan, they might face torture. Is this based on a human rights approach and principled dialogue? No, it is not.
What would you do?
So, the deportation of Afghans, even if they are criminals, is not fair. It does not speak to the universality of human rights. Because we all know that the regime uses torture and even public executions. How can a European country hand over people to such a regime !!. This action is against equal human dignity !!
Do you talk about this with Swiss government officials?
When I spoke with the Swiss in Bern, I honestly did not get to this point. But I did urge them to avoid any normalization of the human rights violations in Afghanistan. Because the problem will not stay within the borders of Afghanistan, it will reach others. The normalization of human rights violations is fuel for the culture of impunity in Sudan, in Gaza, everywhere.
German translation on the website of Swiss Foreign Policy Association SGA-ASPE: aussenpolitik.ch
Sima Samar
Sima Samar is a medical doctor who works on empowering women in Afghanistan since the 80s. In exile in Pakistan, she founded the NGO Shuhada for the improvement of medical services and education opportunities. After the fall of the Taliban regime in the course of the US invasion after the attacks of 9/11, she became Minister for Women’s Affairs and Vice-President in the interim government of Hamid Karzai from December 2001 to July 2002. Her opposition against Islamic laws resulted in death threats and her resignation. From July 2002 to July 2019, Sima Samar was Chairperson of the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, and from 2005 to 2009 she served as United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in Sudan. Currently, she is a visiting scholar at the Fletcher School at Tufts University in the USA and engaged in the Afghanistan Human Rights Center in New Haven, CT.
Her autobiography is“Outspoken: My Fight for Freedom and Human Rights in Afghanistan» (Random House Canada, 2024).